https://ironindian.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/ii_logo300.png 0 0 Phil Pilgrim https://ironindian.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/ii_logo300.png Phil Pilgrim2019-12-30 17:46:182019-12-30 17:46:18New rules regarding CPS
AOMC Motorcycle Club forum 2019
Chair: Keith Mortimer AOMC President.
Guests: John Lewis (CPS Policy, VicRoads), Shane Ellis, Lee Johnstone (Safety & Compliance VicRoads).
John Lewis (VicRoads) gave an introduction to the forum. 2009 CPS changes accelerated vehicles on CPS from 8500 to 30,000 by 2014. At the time there was concern from car clubs about the modifications being made to vehicles and the lack of oversight and clear standards. VicRoads introduced the M plate scheme for modified CPS vehicles. At the time there was discussion but no consideration over the issue with motorcycles. Happy to start talking about motorcycle modifications.
Questions from the floor:
Is there an M Plate for motorbikes? A: No. Have to meet RW requirements and VSI – 4 requirements. In theory, motorbike cannot be modified beyond VSI-4.
Self assessment can be done on motorbikes up to 1949. In our club (Vincent) the bikes went out of production in 1956 but are still basically the same bike that was produced in the 1940s. Seems unfair that the same bike has different treatment depending on date of production. A: Had to be some cut off date. 1949 was considered the start of most modern vehicle systems and hence the date that ws introduced. No matter what year was picked, same issue would have arisen. Has to be clearly defined points to classify. As soon as one exception is made, it opens flood gates for other vehicles. Have to maintain consistency.
If a car is put on H plates and is then modified, does it keep the H plate or does it have to have an M plate? A: When a VASS report is done an M plate is issued. Have no information on database of what modifications have been done. Rely on clubs and public to report vehicles that should be classified differently. Follow up these reports with a letter to the club and owner to prove the car is not modified beyond specifications or provide engineers certificate. Have even been sent You Tube clips of H plate vehicles in drag races. VicRoads have a dedicated email address for these reports.
BSA Owners Club has over 600 bikes on CPS. Keeping of records by clubs seems to be double handling and time consuming as clubs, RW testers and VicRoads all keep and administer these records. A: VicRoads are keen for clubs to keep records because at times they need to go back to the club to prove vehicles have been inspected properly. Makes clubs responsible for the condition of the vehicles. It is also a protection for the club.
VicRoads do a great job but have limited resources. Shouldn’t clubs be more responsible and demerit point system introduced, as if there are no penalties no one cares. A: Police are issuing fines for unroadworthy and over modified vehicles without proper certification. When vehicles are reported to VicRoads and a letter is written to the club, usually the clubs take the matter very seriously. Many illegal modifications are done after the club and VicRoads have issued permits for the vehicle, which was acceptable at that time. Similar things are happening with late production vehicles and VicRoads are cracking down on certifiers who pass these vehicles as fit for road use.
Monarchs Motorcycle Club require members to sign a form each year stating their bike has not been modified, and also have an attendance requirement so vehicles can be sighted. Other clubs do annual checks on vehicles, but not all can be seen. There are some clubs that offer CPS membership for $100 and never see the vehicles. A. VicRoads do audit clubs that have been reported as being ‘Dodgy’.
What is an e roadworthy? VicRoads are in process of transferring roadworthy testing to an online system rather than a paper based system. This means all records and photographs can be stored on a database. These records will be kept in a cloud
Do VicRoads keep stats on convictions of people doing the wrong thing, such as false plates and shared plates? No, VicRoads do not have that information, perhaps the police do. Not aware of any stats they might have. VicRoads looking at technology to link plates to the car to identify theft and cloning, which may eventually be linked to the CPS.
What is VicRoads view on replica vehicles on CPS? At present, VicRoads recognises bikes as what they claim to be, so a 2015 replica of a historic model is eligible. If a bike is identified by a compliance plate, that is its identity forever. There are a number of bikes on the system they believe are not in the spirit of the system, John Lewis will be sending out information to clubs on what the rules regarding replica motorbikes are.
When log book scheme first came in there were only 300 clubs in Victoria. Now there are more than 1300 clubs. Could VicRoads look at the situation where people go out and form clubs with only 6 or 7 people. A consultant was engaged to go out and talk to clubs, and will come up with a set of criteria that can be used to determine if a club is legitimate.
Have VicRoads ever taken a clubs permit facility off them? Yes, over time some clubs have been closed from the CPS.
How do clubs accommodate things like the cafe racers and Japanese bikes that were built without an ID plate without the facility of an M plate? If the bike has been modified away from its original configuration and beyond VSI-4 guidelines, the owner and club would be encouraged to engage with a VASS signatory to look at the vehicle and check it for fit for purpose. The clubs could use this as an assurance that the bike is within the rules. VicRoads acknowledge that the same consideration to modifications in cars has not been given to motorbikes and needs to be addressed. VicRoads need to ensure that any modifications have been done safely. Part of consideration from this meeting is to get feedback and support from clubs as to how modifications on bike could be self certifying or an independent signatory could be bought in to certify.
Rorting of log books has been occurring. Is there any thought of introducing a phone app log book? VicRoads have had some thoughts of looking at apps or electronic log books similar to the learner log book. Have not progressed very far. Have tried to alter logbooks to make it harder to tamper with entries. A lot of club members are against the idea of e-log books, but it may come to being if rorting continues.
After market frames made by Rickman for bikes like Kawasaki ZA that are pre engineered are bought out as an extra component that is street legal. Do you still need a VASS engineers report if using one of these. If it is not a Kawasaki frame from the original manufacturer, it comes under the category of an individually constructed vehicle (ICV). Would need to speak to a VASS engineer.
Rickman bikes were sold in the 70s and there are plenty around. They have been road registered with VicRoads all this time. Legacy challenge if a ICV was built in the 70s. Records would reflect that and would be treated accordingly. If it has never been registered it would have to be treated as if built yesterday.
When out with club on a multi day rally, the rules are that you cannot fill your log book out in advance, but have to record each day on the day. Can you explain why? Do not want books pre filled in so that people do not fill out book entry quickly as policeman is approaching vehicle.
One attendee recounted how he was on a 3 day club run and he always prefills his log book for each day with dates and where he is going. Was pulled over by police who knew CPS inside out and said it was all good to fill in that way, but said that you might be wasting a day or two of your allocation if you pull out of the run or have a mechanical. Not the reason for no pre filling, always merely over being able to quickly fill in when stopped.
Could you clarify commercial use in terms of advertising displayed on vehicles? CPS set up for private use, but some have heritage advertising. There are some vehicles that advertise current businesses. Only used for display, and not used for carrying goods so is a grey area.
Car is taking part in a charity rally with logos on it and is on CPS. How is this viewed? Is still being used for private use rather than commercial use.
Recently have had bikes knocked back in regional Victoria when applying for CPS after being passed by scrutineer. Reason was scrutineer signed off that member was financial, and VicRoads officer said this had to be signed by appropriate club official, not the scrutineer. The form that is submitted with signatories are in 2 parts. Top part is the club officials who can sign applications & renewals to verify membership. Second part is the scrutineer part where the scrutineer signs. Can only sign the renewal if name is on the top part.
Recently had to get a RW on a 2 year old vehicle and was told that he had to have a noise test which entailed the bike going off to another business for several days. Another tester approached said it did not need a noise test. Which one is correct? If there are requirements for a roadworthy to have a noise test, then tester would have to demonstrate that he has taken that step. Roadworthy tester in the audience reported that noise testing only needed if muffler does not meet specifications.
Any conversation/instruction with VicPolice re what to look for in regards to M Plates? Are undertaking a project of informing VicPolice on defects and modifications. Should be rolled out within the year. VicPolice approached VicRoads on this matter, and technicians have met with instructors at the police academy.
The CSTeam section of VicRoads have a very difficult and lengthy process. No telephone contact available so cannot talk to anyone. How can communication be improved? Like contact to be via email so as to keep track of enquiries and send out to appropriate area. There is a customer resolution team that can be contacted.
Frame straightening, what is VicRoads view on this? Like engine or fork replacement, when bike moves further away from original manufactured vehicle. There is a section of VSI-4 that permits repair or modification. Anything deemed beyond that level of repair would need a VASS certification.
Pre 1960 bikes do not have indicators. Can VicRoads include in motorcycle awareness information for car drivers to recognise motorcyclists using hand signals. Is certainly in the regulations that if turning signals not present, then hand signals are allowed.
Member of club is building a bike with a Rickman frame at present. What should I do when he presents it for scrutineering? Will need to get a VASS certificate if it has never had an identity.
Chairman Keith Mortimer suggested that as the Rickman issue is quite complex, the clubs and VicRoads need to get together on this issue to discuss. VicRoads attendees are happy to do.
CPS is eligible when 25 years old to the day. A member started process on date of 25 year anniversary and VicRoads officer knocked him back and told him he had to wait another month to apply. If compliance date only gives month of build and not exact day, then it is considered to be at the end of that month for CPS eligibility purposes. A manufacturers or dealers letter would be sufficient to verify exact date.
Problem is that John Lewis knows the rules when you speak to him on phone, but not all front desk officers are as aware. Front desk officers need to cover a huge area of rules and regulations and in the main they are right, but mistakes can be made. They do also contact the technical team to get verification.
Who do VicRoads consult regarding safety legislation on motorcycles, such as wire rope barriers and maintenance. VicRoads has regular meetings with Road User Access group, TAC and what used to be called motorcycle advisory group. They are very strong advocates for motorbikes.
I have never seen any accreditation or incorporation requirements for clubs that are registered for CPS? Is not a requirement for clubs to be incorporated. AOMC have recommended to clubs to be incorporated to protect office bearers.
Most modifications on a motorbikes are for safety reasons. Do we have a list of what police would be looking for in modifications? When you start modifying vehicles, there are fundamental elements of its performance that need to be considered under ADR requirements. Modifications on motorbikes are more difficult than cars. Project will need to be in consultation with experts and VASS engineers. Police need to be able to make informed judgements on the side of the road.
John Lewis thanked everyone for having them along tonight. Summary of this evening and what VicRoads are taking away is that: Clubs do not want more regulation of the CPS, but would like stricter enforcement of the rules.Concerns about contact with VicRoads both in being able to telephone correct area and be kept in communication loop with information.Clarification on individually constructed bikes and use of aftermarket frames.When e roadworthy introduced will look at the need for storing photographs.Team want to be more engaged with the motoring community, particular around modifications and maintaining the integrity of the scheme.